Dec 20, 2023·edited Dec 20, 2023Liked by Michael Hoffman
Demoralized for the holidays. I'm a Catholic, and also an E. Michael Jones enthusiast, this is all news to me on the usury question. Honestly, I had no clue it was this bad. I appreciate your scholarship.
Would y’all please stop hiding behind “homosexuality is a sin but we love and forgive gays (or maybe not forgive them unless they repent, depending on your beliefs) and just come out and say it: you just don’t like homosexuality, therefore, some of you think it should be outlawed, and some of you even think that gays should be “cleansed from the Earth”.
This is a really stupid question, but at age 57, as cradle Catholic and professional (Art) historian, who is trying to re-embrace the fullness of her faith in all its TRUTH, am I sinning by having a 401K? Is profit off of investment a form of usury? Or is it only on loans?
Also, I have to credit EMJ as one of the people who helped bring me back. His explanation of logos and also of American history from my parents' generation to my own were really clarifying. His work led me to yours, so it's not helpful to divide us.
We live in a usury-steeped world where it is exceedingly difficult to avoid benefiting from it. If there were usury-free credit unions in which deposits were used for investments in farms, inventions, manufacturers and small businesses, it might then be a moral failing not to support institutions like that. Until then, do your best, make your loans to others interest-free, let your conscience be your guide, and remember the words of the prayer Jesus taught us:
" et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris..."
All the credit unions I know of are involved in Usury— the system is so ubiquitous it is virtually inescapable., although with God, all things are possible.
Credit unions, when they are owned by their depositors, seem to be less avaricious than banks, and they are perhaps to be preferred for that reason.
Usury Ubiquity noted. Yes, I agree, Credit Unions when owned by the depositors are an improvement over the mainstream usury banks and are preferred. Nonetheless the Credit Unions also make their money by charging rent (usury) on loans and this is our objection based on the Bible.
Michael. I’ve spent some time reading about usury, including your book Usury in Christendom, but I’m still a little unclear (my failing rather than yours). How do you define usury?
Ok, thanks for pointing me there, got it. ‘Usury is any interest on a loan’ and I totally agree with your clarification that excessive or not is a massive red herring. Any interest at all!
I often find on these things that it’s worth looking at the originals, so I’ve looked at Luke, 6:34 in the vulgate which says: ‘et mutuum date nihil desperantes’. Also, Aquinas, who you mention in passing, says in his qu.78 ‘respondeo dicendum quod accipere usuram pro pecunia mutuata est secundum se iniustum’. Both use cognates of mutuum, which translates into loan in English, and google tells me is a contract in Roman law. If mutuums are one sort of lending, aren’t there others that aren’t mutuums and therefore not so problematic from a usury standpoint? I heard you mention annuities in relation to Leo X in your talk.
Vix Pervenit: “In the third place, those who desire to keep themselves free and untouched by the contamination of usury and to give their money to another in such a manner that they may receive only legitimate gain should be admonished to make a contract beforehand. In the contract they should explain the conditions and what gain they expect from their money.“
Is there no legitimate gain from a loan, or should all loans be free?
I have written about this in depth in my books. Rather than trying to explain in a brief note here I direct you to my books. If you can’t afford them you may be able to acquire them through your local library’s interlibrary loan, if you reside in the United States.
Leviticus 18:27
Leviticus 20:13
A verse the makes the Catholic church Null and Void comes from Matthew 23:8-12
Demoralized for the holidays. I'm a Catholic, and also an E. Michael Jones enthusiast, this is all news to me on the usury question. Honestly, I had no clue it was this bad. I appreciate your scholarship.
Clear thinking as always from Hoffman. All such smoke and mirrors go back to the original deception from our adversary in Genesis 3.
"Did God really say...?"
Sorry to read that Vigano is a Limited Hangout in that regard. I had been very impressed by his outpourings these last few years.
Would y’all please stop hiding behind “homosexuality is a sin but we love and forgive gays (or maybe not forgive them unless they repent, depending on your beliefs) and just come out and say it: you just don’t like homosexuality, therefore, some of you think it should be outlawed, and some of you even think that gays should be “cleansed from the Earth”.
Interview with Fr. Lou Cameli - Catholic Teaching on Homosexuality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoiUiwZ6dXY
This is a really stupid question, but at age 57, as cradle Catholic and professional (Art) historian, who is trying to re-embrace the fullness of her faith in all its TRUTH, am I sinning by having a 401K? Is profit off of investment a form of usury? Or is it only on loans?
Also, I have to credit EMJ as one of the people who helped bring me back. His explanation of logos and also of American history from my parents' generation to my own were really clarifying. His work led me to yours, so it's not helpful to divide us.
Dear Irish
We live in a usury-steeped world where it is exceedingly difficult to avoid benefiting from it. If there were usury-free credit unions in which deposits were used for investments in farms, inventions, manufacturers and small businesses, it might then be a moral failing not to support institutions like that. Until then, do your best, make your loans to others interest-free, let your conscience be your guide, and remember the words of the prayer Jesus taught us:
" et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris..."
Thank you! I belong to a local credit union, so that's good! What are your thoughts on unions? I belong to a union.
All the credit unions I know of are involved in Usury— the system is so ubiquitous it is virtually inescapable., although with God, all things are possible.
Credit unions, when they are owned by their depositors, seem to be less avaricious than banks, and they are perhaps to be preferred for that reason.
Usury Ubiquity noted. Yes, I agree, Credit Unions when owned by the depositors are an improvement over the mainstream usury banks and are preferred. Nonetheless the Credit Unions also make their money by charging rent (usury) on loans and this is our objection based on the Bible.
At the risk of being irreverent if "Montis Impietati" maybe "Fiducia Supplantans?"
Michael. I’ve spent some time reading about usury, including your book Usury in Christendom, but I’m still a little unclear (my failing rather than yours). How do you define usury?
If you’ve read my Usury in. Christendom book and still do not know what usury is then I’ve perhaps done a bad job.
Here is a link to my 58 minute talk on the subject:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Q9DkQS4FC1U1/
Ok, thanks for pointing me there, got it. ‘Usury is any interest on a loan’ and I totally agree with your clarification that excessive or not is a massive red herring. Any interest at all!
I often find on these things that it’s worth looking at the originals, so I’ve looked at Luke, 6:34 in the vulgate which says: ‘et mutuum date nihil desperantes’. Also, Aquinas, who you mention in passing, says in his qu.78 ‘respondeo dicendum quod accipere usuram pro pecunia mutuata est secundum se iniustum’. Both use cognates of mutuum, which translates into loan in English, and google tells me is a contract in Roman law. If mutuums are one sort of lending, aren’t there others that aren’t mutuums and therefore not so problematic from a usury standpoint? I heard you mention annuities in relation to Leo X in your talk.
Vix Pervenit: “In the third place, those who desire to keep themselves free and untouched by the contamination of usury and to give their money to another in such a manner that they may receive only legitimate gain should be admonished to make a contract beforehand. In the contract they should explain the conditions and what gain they expect from their money.“
Is there no legitimate gain from a loan, or should all loans be free?
I have written about this in depth in my books. Rather than trying to explain in a brief note here I direct you to my books. If you can’t afford them you may be able to acquire them through your local library’s interlibrary loan, if you reside in the United States.
So, Jesus was WRONG to have "whipped" them out of the Temple???